I stumbled across a really interesting piece of conversation today, and i thought i’d share it with you!!
I read this article about the Plight of the bitter Nerd.
This article basically explained how many men, although they may feel left out, and ostracised, are in no way comparable to the plight of women around the world.
It explained how if you come to hate feminism because you feel targeted and undercut, it may be because you are going about it the wrong way, and are blaming external factors on internal ones, or perhaps even have the wrong culprit.
the article is listed Below, by Arthur Chu.
I loved it.
But as you may have done so yourself, i got lost on the internet limbo of comments.
I wanted to see the reaction of male readers to another male, which to me made a lot of sense, while being compassionate.
I was not disappointed.
At some point though, some people actually started becoming very constructive through their comments!
Two of the commenters started having a conversation about the right way to take on rejection, or relationships as a whole!
Here is the result:
I’ve been thinking about this a lot. Though I lack a STEM orientation, I otherwise fit the stereotypes of a nerd.
There are many women who believe that men should be the head of the house, that boys should be one way and girls another, football for Jon and ballet for Jane; various aspects and degrees of that yuck.
I could never date such a woman. From my own experiences, that’s about the biggest turn off there is. I gather that is representative of my ilk.
Socially awkward young men who do not fit traditional gender roles want to date intelligent, willful, well-educated young woman–feminists. They say to feminist writers, « There isn’t a clear cut way of pursuing romance anymore, and I struggle socially anyway. How do I approach initiating a relationship with feminist women?
And the response is, « Don’t rape women. »
« I had that part down already. I mean, how does romance work under the new paradigm? »
« Stop raping women, you bitter sexist pig. »
This is very alienating. The effect of it is, « Go away. » At first I assumed this stemmed from misunderstanding, but now I think it means exactly what it’s meant to.
Awkward nerdy men want to date intelligent, well-educated feminists. Intelligent, well-educated feminists would rather not date awkward nerdy men. This is quite reasonable, and, I think, my gut already knew.
I would be kinder if this were said bluntly.
@Kevin J Cunningham @Jon3272 I understand where he’s coming from. It’s less about nerdiness and more about crippling shyness, though. For a LOT of men, particularly the nerdy type, it is extremely difficult to meet women and, when they do, they are often judged as creepy based on little more than their looks and shyness.
Shyness is a MASSIVE turn off for women – a sign of weakness – and as much as many women would like to think they’ve outgrown genetic programming, the vast majority of women still want a mentally/physically STRONG man. Where the women often go wrong, though, is that they expect that strong man to also be deeply n touch with his feminine side.
@Jon3272 If you’re asking stupid questions, you will get stupid answers.
Guys asking for this magic HOW of « initiating a relationship » with or « pursuing » women are asking stupid questions. There is no magic HOW. When you ask how to « initiate a relationship » you’re asking a question that presumes there is a RIGHT THING YOU CAN DO that will get women to say « yes. »
You don’t « initiate » a relationship. That’s not how it works. If you still think it works that way, you’re wrong and you need to figure out how you’re wrong. There is not a « go button » for relationship.
Try initiating a conversation. That’s something you do have the power to press the « go » button on, because all it involves is opening your mouth and saying something:
b) potentially interesting
Now, be aware that it may be a very brief conversation, because shemay not be interested. (This is the principal reason you cannot « initiate » a relationship.)
Asking for the magic HOW is treating women as somehow basically all the same. It’s asking for a guidebook, for a cheat sheet… and it’s basically a manipulative attitude.
If you start seeing individual women instead of The Mythical Woman, each one will tell you in her own terms what it is she’s looking for and whether you might fit the bill. But you do have to talk to them to find out. And you might (probably will) get rejected or let down more often than not. (Ooh, another surprise! It might turn out you’re not interested inthem… which is totally okay, because that’s what happens when you talk to real people instead of dreaming about magic vaginas.)
I mean things like, there’s this girl I asked out, and she quite politely declined, and I find I still have a crush on her.
How long must I wait to ask again without seeming pushy? More than just time of course. I don’t interact with her as much now as I did then. That’s an artifact of our class schedules.
Regardless, that comment seemed like a much better idea at 4 am than it does now.
Still, it remains the best explanation I can think of for the complete inability of even the fairest « feminist » writers to accurately report what Aaronson is saying. Not that I agree entirely with Aaronson’s post, but the whole thing amounts to a request for empathy, and Chui writes « there’s no one more resistant to being empathized with than the bitter lonely guy. »
I don’t know how to understand your last paragraph. When you write « Mythical Woman » I think you do not mean Zena. You are making some odd assumptions about me which are incorrect. While I have issues in socializing (fewer every year!) the ability to talk to people, male and female alike, has never been an issue.
I don’t know how to prove to you that I see women as humans. The ways of seeing associated with feminism is something wider than just male-female equality–it’s a paradigm for understanding every aspect of the culture. Yet if I disagree in any way with any of it, however nuanced, I’m a dehumanizing creep who wants magic vaginas.
This is my main complaint.
Option 1) Get over it.
This is a wonderfully healthy option, almost always the best option. I don’t know what « quite politely declined » means for you, but the operative word is declined. Honestly, here’s a very concrete bit of advice for you: learn to listen for the difference between « I can’t » and « I won’t » (or « I don’t want to »).
« I can’t » comes in many varieties: I’m busy this weekend so I can’t go on this particular date; I’m focusing on my work right now so it’s not a good time to start dating; I’m in a monogamous relationship (which might not last forever); etc. Any of those, or others, suggest that under changed circumstances she might be interested in going out with you.
If that’s the answer you’re hearing, then she’s telling you « how long you must wait » before asking again. If she was just busy that weekend, you should ask again next week. If she’s focusing on her work… well, when you see her you should ask her about that (since it’s obviously important to her!) and take note of her response — if she’s feeling on top of things and you’re having good conversations, maybe she can fit you in after all. Of course if she’s dating someone else, it would be inappropriate of you to intrude on that until she’s single again (and then you want to wait a respectful amount of time), but maybe some day it will happen. (You might want to loop back to Option 1 again, though: Get over it.)
« I won’t » or « I don’t want to, » however… This is a different story. Despite what you may see in crappy « romantic » movies, women are not prizes who are won over through persistence and determination. If a woman is telling you she’s not interested in you… it’svery, very likely that she’s not going to change her mind. No matter how politely she turns you down.
This is where Option 1) is very important. In fact it’s the most important option you have: get over it. Accept that rejection is a part of life.
If you’re finding that really difficult for some reason, you have other options…
Option 2) Open up, be honest, get a clearer answer.
There is no magic amount of time you should wait before trying this. There is no rule book. My best, honest advice: After being rejected, sincerely try Option 1. Try to get over it. If that turns out to be easier than you thought… maybe you weren’t actually that into her! (It happens.) If it’s hard… if you find that you still have fantasies where she changes her mind, where you think that « politeness » was a way of keeping things « open »… well, sir, you need a clearer answer from her. So you need to ask for it. How long should you wait? That’s on you, not her: wait as long as it takes for you to be reasonably sure Option 1 isn’t working. You need an out (and it actually is kinda creepy to just keep pining after a friend in silence). So tell her: « Hey, remember when I asked you out? Well, that wasn’t just a casual interest… I really like you, and I really want to know if there’s anything there. What do you think, is there a chance? »
I promise you, it is NOT creepy to ask a woman for her honest opinion. It may be hard, and it may even be hard for her (because she’s sensitive and polite), but it’s a better, more respectful, more feminist thing than waiting for magic to happen. And if you lay it out there, chances are she’ll give you a much clearer, much more honest answer. And who knows, it might even be the answer you want to hear! But if it’s not…
… back to Option 1. Listen. Hear. Understand. Accept. Get over it.
Okay, one more choice:
Option 3) Change something.
Like Options 1 & 2, this actually starts with listening. Is she telling you she’s not interested? Why is she not interested? Sometimes, for some (many?) women… she just doesn’t know you that well. So, change that: get to know her better, and let her get to know you.
If it’s anything else (lack of confidence? how you dress? physical appearance? interests / lack of interests? your friends?)… then my advice is, take this opportunity to evaluate whether those are things you would want to change about yourself. Are they? Well hell, then getting a little extra motivation from a sweet, attractive girl isn’t such a bad thing! If she wants a little muscle and you think you could use it, go to the gym! You still may not get that date in the end (back to Option 1!) but you’ll feel better about yourself anyway, and you’ll meet other women… and do better with them, no doubt.
If what she doesn’t like about you is NOT something you’d want to change anyway… if you’re happy with you…
Back to Option 1.
There is no rule. There is no amount of time to wait. The rules are: listen, pay attention, change what is in your power to change but only if it’s a change worth making. Above all, respect her decision as hers and hers alone to make.
If you seem to keep hearing the refrain, « Don’t rape women »… it’s because there aren’t many more « rules » than that, actually. Don’t rape, don’t harass, don’t objectify… don’t assume that your desires need to be met, so hers need to change.
Other than that, LISTEN. If you’re really crushing onthis particular woman, you should very much want to hear and understand what she has to say about herself, about you, about what your chances are.
If you pay attention, it’s pretty clear. You don’t need a cheat code.